Community Conversation: Looking at Latin Jazz & Salsa
LJC Community Conversations are designed to explore major ideas in the Latin Jazz world together as a community and inspire conversation through comments. My main motivator here is my belief that LJC readers hold a great deal of knowledge and passion around Latin Jazz, and I think that we can learn something from everyone. Whether you’re a seasoned Latin Jazz performer or a newcomer to the music, leave a comment and let your voice be heard!
My inspiration for today’s post once again comes from the words of LJC readers . . .
A couple of interesting conversations arose in the comments during last week’s article revisiting Jorge Dalto’s Urban Oasis. One thread debated the strength of Urban Oasis, focusing upon the album’s commercial elements and fusion connection. The other discussion veered away from Dalto and talked about Salsa, its connection to Latin Jazz and some modern groups. Both discussions danced around differences between commercial and art music, a balance that has always created tension among the musical world. The ability to see differences and similarities between musical genres and artistic intentions provides exceptional insight into the musical process. Unfortunately, no one quite sees any of these issues in the same way.
The line between Salsa and Latin Jazz has always existed as a blurry distinction for me; it seems that the two styles have just as many similarities as differences. Salsa and Latin Jazz share a number of features, from their rhythmic basis to the use of improvisation. Salsa emphasizes vocals more prevalently, while the majority of Latin Jazz utilizes instrumental structures. Musicians often move between Salsa and Latin Jazz during their careers, and sometimes they cross the divide on the same album. The two genres basically experience major differences in their function - Salsa is commercial music, meant for the masses, while Latin Jazz resides with a foot in the art world. For the uninitiated, differentiating between the Salsa and Latin Jazz may seem like a juggling act, and at times, it may seem absolutely baffling.
Quite a while ago, I wrote a couple of posts on this topic - they may help illuminate my thoughts on the issue. Take a minute and check out:
The Blurry Line Between Latin Jazz and Salsa
Distinguishing Between Latin Jazz and Salsa
There are times when the difference between Latin Jazz and Salsa can seem irrelevant and other times when it becomes absolutely necessary. As a listener, I simply follow my muse wherever it leads me, but I’ve spent many years engulfed in both styles. A newcomer looking for a great dance track will not want to wade through the newest releases by Dafnis Prieto or David Sanchez. Most people attend a concert for a specific reason - maybe they want to dance, or perhaps they are looking to listen. Still, they want a certain setting; someone looking for a night of serious jazz will not want to wade through the dance floor. It’s all simply music; it doesn’t necessarily need to be labeled, but it’s nice to know what we’re getting in an album or concert.
I’d be curious to know what all of the LJC reader think about this . . .
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So what’s your take on the shared space between Latin Jazz and Salsa? This can be a hot topic, and one that’s hard to settle. Let us know your thoughts on at least a few issues:
* Let Us Know If You Listen To Salsa - Which Groups Do You Check Out?
* How Do You Differentiate Between Latin Jazz and Salsa?
* Does The Difference Really Matter To You?
* Do You Think That Most Latin Jazz Listeners Come From Salsa Or Traditional Jazz Backgrounds?
LEAVE A COMMENT and let us know what you think of Salsa. Once you’ve left your thoughts here, don’t forget to visit our past community conversations.
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Do you have an idea for a future Community Conversation? As much as I enjoy exploring my own interests with this regular post, I’d prefer to have this forum address the overall interests of the entire community. Do you have an issue that effects Latin Jazz? Do you have an idea for a fun topic? Let me know so that we can throw it out to the whole community - Leave a Comment or e-mail me.
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Happy to get the ball rolling. Just some quick comments. The fine line between Latin Jazz and Latin dance music is difficult to navigate. I would find it hard to find a person that digs Salsa that doesn’t dig Latin Jazz, and vice-versa. The question then becomes HOW MUCH or HOW DEEP is that person willing to expose themselves to. Hell, what Salsa listener isn’t going to enjoy a Poncho Sanchez concert, but will the same listener enjoy a Dafnis Prieto show? I would venture to say it’s easier to go from the Jazz to the dance, what do you think? Also, a listener that’s tuned in to the charts and arrangements of Salsa shouldn’t have that hard of a time with WHATEVER style Latin jazz being presented, it’s all good!! So now that I’ve flip-flopped enough that I’ve even confused myself, I’ll move on to some of the questions;)
What I’m listening to, I’ll just list some of what I’m listening to currently.
Ray Viera - Trombao
Ocho Y Mas - Juega Billar
Chino Nunez - Dr. Salsa
Grupo Caribe - Somos Caribenos
Ray Martinez y Sabor Criollo - Alto Nivel
Black Sugar Sextet - Estamos Azucar
Maraca - Descarga Total
Tiempo Libre - Arroz Con Mango
Cubanisimo - Greetings From Havana (THIS is the equivalent of a Cuban Spanish Harlem Orchestra - a great, important record!)
Soneros All-Stars - Dime Nague
This is just a small sampling of what currently in my rotation. I feel it’s important to note that ALL of these recordings are current. The old stuff will always be fantastic but IMO this stuff is just as good, if not better!!!
The difference between Salsa & Latin Jazz for me is the structure of the music. I think that regardless of the greatness of the artist or the music, Salsa has a rigid framework that, if not adhered to, changes it from Salsa to something else! Latin Jazz can and does (at times) have just as rigid a framework and yet is boundless due to it’s improvisational freedom.
Man, I could just go on and on…..but I think I’ll wait to see what else is said!
Chazro -
I don’t think that you’re flip-flopping here - it’s a loaded topic! There’s no easy answer, that’s for sure.
You’ve got a great point about comfort zones - how far are we really willing to step outside of the Latin Jazz or Salsa that we enjoy and check out something else? I think that it really applies strongly here. If you’ve listened to Salsa all your life, it’s going to be a challenge to get into some of the modern Latin Jazz happening today. At the same time, more dance oriented artists like Poncho Sanchez would appeal to a listener coming from a Salsa background. In fact, I might even say that the majority of Latin Jazz from years ago - Tito Puente, Machito, Mongo Santamaria, even some Palmieri - had more to do with Salsa than modern jazz as we know it. Not to discount ANY jazz credibility for these guys - they are all heavy hitters - their music just kept such a strong connection to the dance element that people could easily cross between Latin Jazz and Salsa.
I think that the Latin Jazz world has evolved over the past decade into something distinctly different. Artists are choosing to express their identities in very different ways, and finding connections to culture that may not be as externally evident. They are also finding a deeper connection to all sorts of modern jazz, which follows a different aesthetic. In basic terms, Latin Jazz is increasingly moving away from the dance floor. I don’t think that we’ll ever loose the connection completely, it’s too deeply engrained; but it’s something to watch for. Straight-ahead jazz was originally dance music - bebop artists contributed greatly to the decline in jazz popularity as they moved jazz from the dance hall to the concert hall.
I love your list - you’ve given me a lot of great ideas. In fact, I tracked down the Black Sugar Sextet album after you mentioned it last week - what a killer album! I love the Joe Cuba/Cal Tjader influence with the vibes; that’s such a unique sound. The arrangements swing too; there’s a lot of “jazz” oriented stuff there too, once again giving us the fuzzy divide. I second your recommendation on this album.
I’ve checked out the Ocho Y Mas recording quite a bit too, that’s another modern salsa “must-have.” I’ve heard bits of the Chino Nunez album as well as the Soneros All-Stars; I think that your thumbs-up might push me to buy them!
The Maraca album is a total classic - I actually arranged that title cut for the Latin Jazz group at the high school a couple of years back (we had some singers at the time). Have you heard Soy Yo? I bought it a while back and it never really hit me in the same way. There’s definately some good stuff on the recording, but Tremenda Rumba was off the hook.
I love the Cubanisimo album as well. When I bought it, I expected something a little more jazz oriented, but after I heard it, I just couldn’t be disapointed. There are so many killer arrangements there! It’s just knocks me off my feet every time I hear it.
Timba anyone? I got really into 1990s timba a while back - Issac Delgado, Charanga Habanera, Los Van Van, Bamboleo, the list goes on . . . I still like to listen to it sometimes. I’ve heard that Tiempo Libre hits the Timba nail on the head, I’ve got to check them out.
And of course, I love the old Fania material. I know that’s the stuff that everyone loves, but there’s just so much classic material there - Barretto, Palmieri, Willie Colon, Bobby Valentin . . . I’ll always have a soft spot for those recordings.
I’ve been thinking about having a recurring Salsa feature here at LJC. I don’t want to loose the site’s focus, but there’s such a natural connection, it seems silly not to cover it. We’ll see . . .
Wazzup Chip! This subject is near and dear to my heart so expect me to keep on yappin’ until it’s buried!! After reading what I posted I felt that I was focusing on the differences as opposed to the similarities between the 2 genres. I’m going to attempt to touch on a subtlety that link them. I believe of all the things that link Latin Jazz & Salsa, the primary has to be the rhythms. One of the most interesting things, to me,that goes without mention anywhere is the Latin musicians’ (epecially among Salsa players) use of the word ‘Swing’. Of course, the average Jazz aficianado hears the word ‘Swing’ and automatically links it to an old form/style of Jazz. The word used to be a ‘hip’ way of describing the music, as in ‘that’s swinging!’, but, while I guess it still used in this context (I use it) I don’t think it’s as much a part of modern-day slang as it once was. The average Jazz listener would probably be surprised to hear that the word is VERY MUCH used within the Latin dance music scene and, surprise!!, it means pretty much exactly what it’s always meant within the context of music. When the Salsa is groovin’, percolatin’, hot, in the zone, it isn’t unusual to hear the Sonero exclaim something like “oye ese swing!”. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the word used in THAT context on so many of my records, and has been for years. Bottom line, Jazz swings and guess what? So does Salsa!!!!;)
On to another of your questions; Does the difference really matter to me? NAH!!! As I’ve told you before, there’s only two types of music, good & bad…;)
I had been waiting until a few comments were in before chiming in.
Maestro Tito Puente,describing his music at a gig in the 80’s said something like this:”They call them music I do Latin Jazz right now,they used to call it Salsa awhile back,and a long time ago it was mambo.But I have always been doing the same thing”
The lines are indeed blurry in recorded music-They get even blurrier when you move some of the classic salsa dura outfits into the live format.Living in Puerto Rico in the 70’s,I was able to see a lot of the classic bands,Cortijo,Roena,La Selecta,Sonora Poncena,etc-This outfits featured a lot more improvising at gigs than on record.
A perfect example as to how blurry this line would be is Tipica 73’s classic “The Two Sides Of Tipica 73″.This record,in its vinyl incarnation had a “concert” side (latin jazz) and a “dance” side (salsa)-It doesn’t get any more confusing than that.
To quote Chazro (and Duke) it’s about good and bad to me