Latin Jazz Conversations: Jose Madera (Part 3)
Decades of performing experience among legends leaves a musician with a sense of responsibility to their fellow artists and the greater music world. During their time with a legend, any musician would inevitably soak up artistic approaches, performance aesthetics, and a general musicality - all valuable tools. As a result of this experience, they carry intimate knowledge that most people will never comprehend, and they become the artistic standard bearers of this approach. Their continued performances both keep the past alive by drawing upon this knowledge and define the art form’s future by making an original statement. They become the role models for younger musicians and the mentors to their own band members - their responsibility includes passing on the subtleties of the tradition to a new generation. They are the only ones left with the knowledge, experience, and insight to authentically carry the music of the past into the future - if they don’t do it, nobody can. The music world depends upon them to keep the music alive and pass it on to a new generation.
Percussionist Jose Madera took that responsibility very seriously after the death of legendary timbalero and bandleader Tito Puente. Together with bongocero Johnny Rodriguez and saxophonist Mitch Frohman, Madera formed the Latin Giants of Jazz, a big band dedicated to keeping the Palladium mambo big band sound alive. The three musicians realized that Puente’s passing meant the end of a musical era, and they were some of the only people that could keep the Palladium sound in the public eye. They gathered some of New York’s finest musicians to fill a 21-piece big band, carefully picked through the classic repertoire, and began rehearsing for their first recording. The band stayed faithful to the sound that they know well, but also put their own spin on it with a thicker instrumentation and original arrangements. Their first release, The Latin Giants Play the Music of the Palladium
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LATIN JAZZ CORNER: Tito Puente was the last of the Big 3 to die from the Palladium. Did you feel that the Palladium-style big band mambo left with him?
JOSE MADERA: Well, it left with him until we brought it back with the Latin Giants orchestra. You know, the family allowed the (Puente) band to work for a year with Eddie Palmieri fronting it as a special guest, or Dave Valentin. But then they stopped it.
LJC: So how did the Latin Giants of Jazz come about? You put it together with Johnny Rodriguez & Mitch Frohman, right?
JM: Yea, we didn’t want this to die. So we went ahead and did this record, which was in the can for almost a year before it got released. We did that one, and then a few years passed by and we did another one, and now a year has passed since we did the Trip to Mamboland
LJC: When you put the band together, you really captured the big band mambo sound, but you thicken it up too – you’ve got the trombones that weren’t a part of that early Machito or Tito Puente sound and there’s a bit of a ‘70s salsa influence in there with the dance tunes. How did you bring all that together?
JM: Well, those things really happen naturally; it gets influenced a lot by the material that we choose to record. This last one has a lot of dance music on it. I gave out a lot of the music to a lot of the guys to write. I sort of stayed a little bit behind – I’m getting lazy now! I took a lot of the easier tunes to do the arrangements for, I gave the harder ones out. But the integrity of the band, and the sound of the band still shines through. The seventies salsa sound is something that Sonny (Bravo) and myself helped to form at Fania and of course, Louie Rameriz, who passed away in 1993, did too. We were certainly responsible for a lot of that; so the fact that it does show on some of it, I think is a good thing, you know?
The dancers from the seventies were in their twenties at the time, and they’re now in their fifties. Time marches on, it doesn’t stop. Most of the people who were Tito Puente fans in the fifties, they’re either 70 or 80 or dead! And the Machito fans, those people are gone for a long time.
JM: Yea, that’s something that we started pushing the other way, because a lot of Spanish people, when you say Latin Jazz, they’re not really that much into it. Most people go out dancing in clubs, and you’re not going to hear a lot of jazz tunes in clubs. So in order to compete with that, we decided to go a little bit more towards dance music. We still have two instrumentals on the record. We’ll always have one or two; because when we do a jazz room like Birdland or Yoshi’s in Oakland, we need to play some of those charts as well.
JM: Yea, we’ve known Randy for a long time. I used to write and arrange jingles for radio and TV at Aries Sound International, which used to work for McCain/Erickson, the big advertising firm in New York. From Coca-Cola to Kentucky Fried Chicken and all these jingles, we would use a big band, and in the trumpet section was always Randy Brecker, Lew Soloff, and shucks, I can’t remember half of the guys now. So I know Randy from those days. Mitch Frohman called Randy up and told him, and he said sure. The same with Tom Harrell, who also played on one of the tunes. That’s sort of like a little thing from that era, from the Salsa Meets Jazz thing that happened at the Village Gate for many years. Which is now happening, it’s now called the Red Fish and Art D’Lugoff is still involved in it. We may play there in the future.
LJC: On that same album, you had one of the last recorded performances of Mario Rivera. Can you share any thoughts about Mario Rivera and his contributions to Latin Jazz?
JM: Mario plays on one track, “Flamenco Mood,” which is recorded live in New York at the now defunct IAJE. Mario was in the Tito Rodriguez band for a couple of years. Before that he was playing in New York for the Angel Masera Latin Jazz All-Stars, which was the gentleman who owned the Bronx Casino. It was another dance place; it was up in the Bronx on 149th Street and 3rd Avenue. From the Tito Rodriguez band, Mario came over to Puente’s band, and Mario’s first recording with Tito Puente’s band is the twentieth anniversary album. He stayed until 1974 and then came back when they started the Latin Jazz Ensemble. So Mario’s influence was very great, very good saxophone player – good baritone sax player.
There’s three baritone sax players in all of Latin music. The best one was Leslie Jonakins, who played in Machito’s band, who was really an alto player, and he played on the Billie Holiday sessions. He became a baritone player, and he was the best one, period. Doc Cheatham starts off one of his interviews, when they talk about that, he says, “Leslie Jonakins was always the best baritone player around, on the scene.” This is including Cecil Payne, who went on to play with Machito for a while also, and all these guys. Just Jonakins had the sound – he was the old guard. Then you had Shepp Pullman, who played with Puente’s band and always sounded good in the section. And then you had Mario Rivera. Those were the three guys. With all due respect to everybody else who played, but these are the guys that really made that mark.
LJC: On the new album, “Cuando Suenan Los Cueros” is a big showcase for you, Johnny Rodriguez, and George Delgado. It’s almost like a big descarga within a mambo, which is not something you hear on dance records today. Do you feel like it’s an important element that is missing in today’s music?
JM: Yea, like “Cuero Na’Ma,” which is the same type of tune. Except that when I did the arrangement on this one, I take each section up and change the key on it, to give it that contrast. Johnny’s solo is in one musical key and then it changes and it goes to George’s solo. And then when George’s solo is over, it changes keys again and goes to mine, which adds contrast to the tune. It’s a good thing for the people, people always like that, you know, they like to hear drum solos and all that kind of stuff. We obviously can’t do it too long, because we can’t have a track on the record that’s fifteen minutes, you know? As it is, it’s pretty long, I think it’s six minutes and change, which is kinda long. That was the last tune on the session by the way. That was the very last tune of the session, everybody was kind of tired, and we did it one, two, three, let’s go.
LJC: Another track, “Ahora Mismo,” brings Cita Rodriguez out in front, Pete “El Conde” Rodriguez’s daughter. It seems like such a link to Fania, how did that come about?
JM: Well, we’ve known her since she was like 12 years old. She and her brother, Pete Jr., sang coro on the second Tito Puente Birdland record, and I remember Pete being there with Francis his wife and just beaming, watching them sing. We always kept that in the back of our minds.
Here’s how it really got rolling - we were doing a gig two years ago in the summer; they have old timers day in New York and the Tito Puente band played. I saw Cita there, so I told her to come on up and sing coro. She sang and then Johnny decided to put her on coro on the second recording. She sounded so good that she’s become a part of the band now. Wherever the Latin Giants appear, she goes, and she sings coro. On the third record, we decided to give her a tune, and she sang a song.
LJC: With a big band like that, there’s a big financial investment, and the logistics of moving everyone around must make touring a challenge. Are you guys going to get out much to support the new album?
JM: Well, we just did The Mayan in Los Angeles three weeks ago and then we went out and did the NAMM thing. There’s a couple of things, I mean, if they want the band, they can pay the fee for it. If they don’t want to pay the fee, then we won’t do it. Part of the uniqueness of the band and the sound of the band involves the size of it. People were just blown away by it, because, you know, there’s just nothing out there. And most of the younger people have never heard anything like that in their lives. That’s part of it. We worked a big festival in France in July . . . there really aren’t that many places to work anyway. The U.S. economy is falling apart right now and the government just keeps spending money without any gold backing. They took the country off the gold standard in the seventies, you know? They just continue to print this paper, and one of these days, this whole shit is just going to collapse. But, as far as gigs, whatever there is – we did Lehman College in October with Eddie Palmieri. So, you know, there’s a couple of things here and there. If the band worked once or twice a month, it would be great. Because I know the economy is so bad, and there aren’t that many places to play. How many festivals are there? Most of the jazz festivals have now gone onto rock and roll, and pop and crap. They’re not even that anymore.
LJC: I’ve got one more question for you – one of the things that I see the Latin Giants doing is keeping that big band palladium sound alive and passing it onto a new generation. Do you have any thoughts about the future of this style of music?
JM: Well, you know something, I think that after we’re done with it, it’ll stop. We’re the kids of the dads that played in these bands. Johnny’s dad played before him in these orquestas; we’re kind of like the kids that grew up around this stuff and we’re greatly influenced by it. Although we have written and/or played this other music in the seventies, whatever was being recorded at the time, our roots are really the Palladium kind of stuff. Unfortunately, all the people that came after us are slightly aware or not aware at all of that scene or that music. They obviously couldn’t possibly have seen those orchestras, unless they were walking around as ghosts at that time. There’s no way that they could be influenced, and I’ve seen that. So they have no knowledge of it. It sounds good on a record, but . . . I’ll never forget as a kid growing up, you hear these bands on record, and you say “Yea, it’s O.K.” But when you go in person and heard that, like at the Apollo theater, or wherever it was, you were blown away by it man. They were so tremendous, and we get more or less the same reaction. Anyone can show up with two trumpets and two trombones, or whatever’s being used now, and it’s O.K., but it’s so tiring and limited as to what you can do, you know? When you come in with five saxes, four bones, and four trumpets, and then you have three singers and a whole rhythm section, it’s like a mind blower, you know? So, I’d like to say that it will continue, but, I don’t think it will. Unless somebody really made a concerted effort to study it and continue it on, but I mean, it’s kind of difficult, because you need to really be rooted in that style. Unfortunately, that’s just not around today, outside of us.
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Thanks to Jose Madera for spending time talking with me about his outstanding career - it was a learning experience! Make sure that you check out all three parts of the interview. In addition to this piece, jump to:
Part 1 where Madera discusses his early career and time with the Machito band.
Part 2 where Madera discusses his 31 year tenure as a member of Tito Puente’s band.
And make a point to read the LJC review of Ven Baila Conmigo (Come Dance With Me) from The Latin Giants of Jazz, a wonderful album!
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These three parts were great to read. As a performer who has to stick to the smaller format of groups I always had wanted to be there on a bigger ensemble to capture that experience as well. I am already fascinated by the videos I find and the like, but it is of course never the same. It is quite disappointing to indeed find what is known as “salsa romantica”. I would actually say that I am on with a lot of people’s views–the music focuses on the incipid and vanal themes of pop music and the rhythms are slowed down, and are performed almost like with a sequencer. What hurts more is that the musicians are thrown out and they are the ones who suffer since most of the money now go to the producers and record labels (so much for copyright). However, things are changing somewhat thanks to well, the way file sharing is working online. I don’t believe that kind of big sound would stop… though it will of course change and not be the same. However, the same happens with classical music and the forms of jazz. Tradditional jazz is much different than what you’d call the “mainstream” jazz or “smooth” jazz and there is just too much going on at this time and age–this can be a reason why latin jazz and other forms of music which are more elaborate do not appeal to the younger audiences. Discipline is also indeed another factor that greatly influences how a group or artist can define their career.